Curse

Quaker · Apr 08, 2010, 04:11 PM // 16:11

I've been doing a lot of the Zaishen Quests lately, and often times I join a PUG just for fun. This has been overall, a successful thing, but as you can imagine, sometimes it doesn't go so well.

I was going to vent about it with a rant, but I've decided that less rant, more suggestion may be better.

So, the problem with PUGs, at least as far has HM Z-quests goes, is not what you may think. It's not the so-called noobs, or the inexperienced players.
No, it's the experienced players who should know better that are the problem. So instead of a rant I'd like to offer these tips for PuG'ing to those semi-experienced, think-they're-leet, players who screw it up for the rest.

1. It's a PuG, this naturally means that you may get inexperienced players and/or players with skill bars that are (in your opinion) less then optimal.

2. Many missions and bounties have "back door" methods to get them done - alternate paths, enemies that can be avoided, etc. Keeping #1 in mind, not everyone in a PuG will be aware of these alternate methods.

3. Keep it simple - keeping in mind #1 and #2 - it's often simplest and fastest just to do it "oldschool". Do not assume that everyone will approach the task in the same manner as you. Be willing to learn new methods.

4. Pinging and drawing madly on the compass during the mission/quest is not helpful. No one knows who's pinging or why, or what they want, so it often just leads to the group being confused and spread out everywhere.

5. If you really, really want people to do things a particular way - explain it to the group before you start. I know it will take up some of your precious time, but...

6. If people go the "wrong way" and agro things you think you should avoid, it's much faster and easier to simply help kill the agro rather than whine about it or, worst of all, go off your own way without helping. Stay with the group.

7. Don't run way ahead of the healers and/or run past agro and then whine about not getting healed. (From the PuGs I've been a healer in.

)

8. Unless you actually are the leader, don't try to highjack the group and enforce your own view.

/rant

There could be more, but I could add them later. I think #3 is the most important overall.

Karate Jesus · Apr 08, 2010, 04:24 PM // 16:24

We already have like 3 threads with PuG advise. We really don't need another one, especially not a rant/whine inspired one.

Very few people still care about PuGing outside of zquest/zmission stuff anymore, so I don't even think we need the other ones that we have.

Cuilan · Apr 08, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Basically can sum all that in one sentence. Learn to communicate and work things out with the other players instead of being an idiot.

I PUG whenever possible and I suggest methods, builds, and skills while in someone else's party. Not in any rude way, but I would like to think people enjoy feedback. I mean, I'd even rather have someone tell me my bar sucks and kick me as long as they explain why and what could be changed. Since my main is a mesmer, it's pretty rare for people to ping builds at me unless it's in DoA. Sometimes I may be one of the few who is asked to ping except for the monks. People are likely worried about having a wasted slot in their party because someone wanted to fast cast fire or random PvP piss.

gremlin · Apr 08, 2010, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quaker

I've been doing a lot of the Zaishen Quests lately, and often times I join a PUG just for fun. This has been overall, a successful thing, but as you can imagine, sometimes it doesn't go so well.

I was going to vent about it with a rant, but I've decided that less rant, more suggestion may be better.

So, the problem with PUGs, at least as far has HM Z-quests goes, is not what you may think. It's not the so-called noobs, or the inexperienced players.
No, it's the experienced players who should know better that are the problem. So instead of a rant I'd like to offer these tips for PuG'ing to those semi-experienced, think-they're-leet, players who screw it up for the rest.

1. It's a PuG, this naturally means that you may get inexperienced players and/or players with skill bars that are (in your opinion) less then optimal.

2. Many missions and bounties have "back door" methods to get them done - alternate paths, enemies that can be avoided, etc. Keeping #1 in mind, not everyone in a PuG will be aware of these alternate methods.

3. Keep it simple - keeping in mind #1 and #2 - it's often simplest and fastest just to do it "oldschool". Do not assume that everyone will approach the task in the same manner as you. Be willing to learn new methods.

4. Pinging and drawing madly on the compass during the mission/quest is not helpful. No one knows who's pinging or why, or what they want, so it often just leads to the group being confused and spread out everywhere.

5. If you really, really want people to do things a particular way - explain it to the group before you start. I know it will take up some of your precious time, but...

6. If people go the "wrong way" and agro things you think you should avoid, it's much faster and easier to simply help kill the agro rather than whine about it or, worst of all, go off your own way without helping. Stay with the group.

7. Don't run way ahead of the healers and/or run past agro and then whine about not getting healed. (From the PuGs I've been a healer in.

)

8. Unless you actually are the leader, don't try to highjack the group and enforce your own view.

/rant

There could be more, but I could add them later. I think #3 is the most important overall.

QFT esp 5.
Impatience lack of pre planning and communication has always been the bane of GW

Allamorph · Apr 08, 2010, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Learn to communicate and work things out with the other players instead of being an idiot.

/signed

While it's nice to be able to drop into a pug and blaze through the mission with everyone doing their implied jobs in total silence, the most fun I've had in ZM pugging was in groups with high levels of chatter. I guess it's just nice to know there are humans on the other side.

mage767 · Apr 08, 2010, 06:20 PM // 18:20

It's pretty simply to take charge of the group as a leader. Keep 1-2 healer heroes with you at all times, and the rest will follow.

However, if you go all pugs, and there are one or two pugs who are enforcing their own views which are different from your own (although you are the current leader), remind them why only your view should be followed, giving good examples:

1. Who here has 5 legendary guardians? This should shut many up although you don't need to prove anything.

2. Who here has beaten the mission in under 10 min?? Everyone is eager to get things done quick, so the newbies will become devout followers.

3. Make examples by kicking those pugs who complain when you want to bring a power ER prot hero or a MM because and the pugs are too sucky to realize some builds are indeed excellent choices on heroes.

4. Show them how your knowledge of GW skills and professions far exceeds those in the group, by being able to tell them which skills to drop/add/ and why. Some pugs don't like changing. If so, and the group agrees he/she is being a jerk which puts the group at risk (like a firestorm ele in foundry for example), def. kick.

5. Don't form a party if you suck. Most likely, you will form a poorly balanced group for the task, increasing the likelihood of fail. In order words, don't have failz written all over your forehead.

Zahr Dalsk · Apr 08, 2010, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

Lycan Nibbler · Apr 08, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I wish I could type and fight well at the same time. Im a slow typer at the best of times without the other distractions

So if you ever pug with me, Im the quiet one ^.^ (I so hope theres voice built into gw2 - I love vent but ofc its useless with 98% of pugs)

Lord Dagon · Apr 08, 2010, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

GFT if ppl could do this then wed have all the problems puging wise fixed preety much.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Tip for PUG players: just because you made the build yourself, doesn't make it good. Go to PvX, use something from there. That way you'll be useful.

I strongly disagree, cause not all the good builds are on PvX and unless the outdated ones have been removed not all the builds on PvX are good.

One of the things that narks me off when it comes to PUGs is when you get one person insisting you bring X build or change X, Y and Z skill to the point that it is effectively an new build. Except for certain missions where I know certain skills are needed (eg Urgoz) I am resistant to change my builds cause I do know they work and do the damage I want.

Another thing too, with asking people to change builds they need the time to work out how to work the build. I would rather go through a mish with someone who is used to their build and can probably use it to great affect rather than someone who has switched to a new build and is still finding their way.

I would have to go with the OP's ideas over what I have quoted and mage767. overzealous idiots demanding this, that and the other can be just as much a detriment to the group as the noob feeling their way

NewbreedofMe · Apr 08, 2010, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Just learn to keep your feet on the ground. Some people are just way over their heads the way they think. Elitists for example..

JDRyder · Apr 08, 2010, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Meh I agree that its the "experienced" players that always F*** up pugs. Its rare that I fail with pugs unless theres some wannabe GoE or TAM member that bitches about everything. Its PvE, so really anything works, and tbh I find it more fun PUGing than doing things with guilds a lot of times (especially in todays meta) because you're free to use whatever build you want, rather than cookiecutter crap.

Phaern Majes · Apr 08, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Aye PvX has some good builds, but that doesn't make all builds that aren't on there bad. If someone pings me a bar that keeps to 2 maybe 3 attributes and they seem to work together and do their job, then I have no problem taking them.

That said most of the game can be done with less than 8 players anyways so even bringing a person or two running bad builds probably won't make or break you (granted HM in some end-game stuff it might).

For example my buddy just started playing again, having had RL problems to deal with for the last 3 years. He was on the last mission of Nightfall and we picked up a Dervish who was having trouble with the mission. When he pinged his build I saw why - 3 scythe mastery skills, 2 mysticism, 1 earth prayers, 1 healing prayers, 1 smiting prayers and all his attributes were spread out in those.

But I figured what the hell its Abaddon on normal we'll pull the guy through, and hell we even managed to get master's. And the guy was really friendly, just needed a hand was all.

Point being yes there are some really bad builds, but most of the time they won't make or break your team and more often then not if you explain to them why the build probably isn't so good in a way that doesn't make them feel like they are being talked down to then you might, just might have a chance at BadGWplayers -= 1;

The game community used to be helpful now its ping your build and /kickfromgroup. People act like they were perfect from the start and never had anyone explain any aspect of the game to them.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phaern Majes

The game community used to be helpful now its ping your build and /kickfromgroup. People act like they were perfect from the start and never had anyone explain any aspect of the game to them.

Exactly. We were all noobs at some point

Karate Jesus · Apr 08, 2010, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

I strongly disagree, cause not all the good builds are on PvX and unless the outdated ones have been removed not all the builds on PvX are good.

PvX is a great resource, but that's all that it's intended to be. It's not supposed to be a weapon used against players with non-PvX builds. I've always tried to help people understand that it's meant to help players learn the basics, create based on those basics (that's what variants are for), and have builds in case they don't feel like building.

We do our best to remove outdated builds, but we don't catch them all. If you noticed a build that's outdated, let me or another admin there know and we'll look into it.

Ariovist Lynxkind · Apr 08, 2010, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

PvX is a great resource, but that's all that it's intended to be. It's not supposed to be a weapon used against players with non-PvX builds (that is, if their builds aren't terrible of course).

We do our best to remove outdated builds, but we don't catch them all. If you noticed a build that's outdated, let me or another admin there know and we'll look into it.

Thanks for that. Don't usually look there anyway, but yeah, glad that you pointed out that it is intended as a reference, not a be all and end all like some make it to be.

Liston · Apr 08, 2010, 07:53 PM // 19:53

not to vent, but many z-challenge pugs take monks, discord, and sos for granted, so if you are not one of those professions, gl! ffs, the z-mission was in Nolani Academy about a month ago in HM and ppl were looking for the mentioned above.

dagrdagaz · Apr 08, 2010, 07:54 PM // 19:54

For the moment i seem to use PvX Wikia builds as a good basis, i usually still change 1 or 2 skills.
But atm i am still doing general NM PvE, so i dont feel the need to use pvx builds exactly as they r listed on pvx wikia.

Tharg · Apr 08, 2010, 08:04 PM // 20:04

I never ask people to ping. They should figure out what works for themselves. I hate to ping my build (mostly monk) because I know what works for me. Probably not latest and greatest compared to what's on PvX Wiki - but it works for me...

If I play a monk most of the time, why would someone who plays another profession most of the time know what's best for me???

I have had instances where a PUG basically forced a skill bar on me that I was not familiar with - and I sucked so badly... They were all upset (noob!!!) but hey - they should have let me play with my own bar.

Warvic · Apr 08, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

gl trying to bring this message to the players. As only like 1% (I guess) of the players is checking these forums ..

You know.. They could also just NEVER ADDED heroes.. Just saying